Jacob's Nemesis and Dead People

[Miss Austen]

Hi Folks,

I just watched this Lost recap about The Incident.

Lost Video Recaps Blog Archive Season 5 Episode 16 “The Incident” – Secrets and Recap

In this Seanie B says that Jacob's Nemesis seems to be the Smoke Monster and takes over dead bodies such as Yemi, Christian Shepherd and Locke.

There is one difference with this. When Jack found his father's coffin it was empty - whereas with Locke, his body is still in the coffin, even though Jacob's Nemesis is pretending to be Locke.

Why this difference with the coffins being empty or not empty. I think Yemi's remains were also still in the plane. So the mystery is, is Jacob's Nemesis really using Christian Shepherd's body or did the island bring Christian back to life?

Cheers, MA

[Gazman]

I think that the Smoke Monster and the Nemesis are actually on the same side - against Jacob.

Don't forget that the Smoke Monster told Ben to do everything that Locke (surely it must have known it was actually the Nemesis) told him to do.

So it was the Smoke Monster that told Ben (through taking the form of Alex, his daughter) to listen to Locke, and the Locke told Ben to kill Jacob - so IMO it would seem that the Smoke Monster and the Nemesis worked together (sort of) against Jacob. Even if they're not necesarily on the same side, it would appear they both wanted Jacob dead.

My thinking now is, that they don't like him because he is trying to change the island. Jacob is trying to bring new people and prove that they can live in peace or something, which ultimately doesn't appear to be the way the island works.

So the Smoke Monster and the Nemesis, who (especially the Smoke Monster) seem very traditional, knowing people can't change and being so embedded within the original roots/mythology of the island, they don't like Jacob trying to change things - hence they want him dead.

Just a thought...

[Miss Austen]

Ah! But you didn't answer my question as to why Christian Shepherd's coffin was empty and Locke's is not - that's what I'm really puzzled about. I think it may be significant.

Cheers. MA

[Gazman]

That's something I've never been able to do even attempt to answer - I'm not sure how that will link.

I suppose one way of looking at it is, Christian's body was gone, but does that mean whoever became Christian actually took on his body? Who's to say it wasn't just like Locke and the Nemesis now the difference being that with Christian, whoever 'overtook' Christian's body, maybe they just took the body as well, and hid it/buried/burned it so it appears as though they actually inhabited the body.

[Miss Austen]

But why would that person be so careful to hide Christian's body but not Lockes?

Are there two people on the island using the form of the deceased or just one I wonder.

I still think Flocke might be the Smoke Monster as you never see them together.

Maybe there are two Smoke Monsters though because I can't forget that when Locke (the real one) saw the Smoke Monster for the first time, he said it was beautiful but Mr Eko said he'd had a very different experience when he saw it - more than once - it finally killed him of course.

Cheers, MA

[Gazman]

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

But why would that person be so careful to hide Christian's body but not Lockes?

It may have just been the ease? Christian's coffin landed way away, and someone perhaps had the time to hide a body, but Ilana and that lot already had Locke's body so he couldn't do anything about that?

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

Maybe there are two Smoke Monsters though because I can't forget that when Locke (the real one) saw the Smoke Monster for the first time, he said it was beautiful but Mr Eko said he'd had a very different experience when he saw it - more than once - it finally killed him of course.

This is what I believe.

[Miss Austen]

Yeah you could be correct about the ease of hiding Christian's body as opposed to Lockes. BUT this Flocke guy seems really good at manipulating people even the arch manipulator Ben! So why didn't he just launch himself as the bad smoke monster and frighten Ilana and co away.

However perhaps Flocke has been too busy ensuring his loophole dodge works!

So maybe Christian Shepherd is the good smoke monster? I'm trying to recall if the deceased Christian Shepherd ever made people do bad things; but I can't think of any - can anyone else?

Cheers, MA

[charlierocks]

Perhaps this had something to do with why the scene had to be recreated as close as possible, perhaps it had something to do with hijacking the body??
Also as far as we know Jack viewed Christian at the mortuary, but John was kept very close to Ben so maybe Christian wasn't actually in the coffin when the plane took off.

[Miss Austen]

Yeah. Christian's body could have been hijacked. But we have seen evidence before where the inhabitants of the island are nervous about dead bodies lying around. So Christian's body was possibly nicked on the island rather than before.



Cheers, MA

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

Yeah you could be correct about the ease of hiding Christian's body as opposed to Lockes. BUT this Flocke guy seems really good at manipulating people even the arch manipulator Ben! So why didn't he just launch himself as the bad smoke monster and frighten Ilana and co away.

Perhaps Ilana and her friends have a way to deal with the Monster? Because in reference to my thread about Esau and the flaws in his plan, hiding the body would have be VERY important.

It may have jeopardised all the work he had done in creating the loophole, so it seems careless to leave the body behind. Though, I get the impresson, even by hiding the body, Ilana may have known what was going to happen and they would have persued Jacob to save him. But the body was obviously concrete proof of who's body Esau was using.

Off-topic, but I wonder why Ilana arrived on the Island as late as she did? Unless Jacob planned to die?

So maybe Christian Shepherd is the good smoke monster? I'm trying to recall if the deceased Christian Shepherd ever made people do bad things; but I can't think of any - can anyone else?

Cheers, MA

Christian asked Locke to turn the Wheel TWICE, so I think Christian is Esau or is working FOR him. Though, where Claire ties into this I have no idea. Nor the words about Aaron being where he needs to be.

Originally Posted by Gazman

It may have just been the ease? Christian's coffin landed way away, and someone perhaps had the time to hide a body, but Ilana and that lot already had Locke's body so he couldn't do anything about that?

This is what I believe.

Perhaps animals took his body, or it fell out of the Coffin. Though, I do feel it is more significant than this. Good point about not having the chance to hide the body Gaz.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by charlierocks

Perhaps this had something to do with why the scene had to be recreated as close as possible, perhaps it had something to do with hijacking the body??

What do you mean exactly c.rocks?

Also as far as we know Jack viewed Christian at the mortuary, but John was kept very close to Ben so maybe Christian wasn't actually in the coffin when the plane took off.

Interesting idea. But where do you believe his body was?

I wonder why Locke's body was placed in a huge crate rather than a Coffin?

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

Yeah. Christian's body could have been hijacked. But we have seen evidence before where the inhabitants of the island are nervous about dead bodies lying around. So Christian's body was possibly nicked on the island rather than before.

When you say hijacked, do you mean inhabited?

I wonder who would have taken his body?

[Miss Austen]

No, what I mean about his body being hijacked is that the body was missing. Jack found an empty coffin but he had kept seeing his father in the jungle.

So what happened to the body? If animals had eaten the body there would still have been bones and actually Jack found the empty coffin not that long after the crash.

I remember seeing an episode in the last series where The Others or was it the DI? were keen not to have a dead body lying about. This body was Ethan's mothers first husband - can't remember his name.

Cheers, MA

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Miss Austen

No, what I mean about his body being hijacked is that the body was missing.
So what happened to the body? If animals had eaten the body there would still have been bones and actually Jack found the empty coffin not that long after the crash.

Well I do not think animals ate him, but I thought I would mention it. I want to believe something better than Boars eating him.

I remember seeing an episode in the last series where The Others or was it the DI? were keen not to have a dead body lying about. This body was Ethan's mothers first husband - can't remember his name.

Yes I remember, Amy said to the Survivors "we have to bury him" - as part of the truce I think it was. Which I think was to simply hide the body otherwise the Others would not the truce was broken.

There was also Keamy's men burying Danielle and Karl. Though, I am not sure if it relates to Esau. I am trying to think if he has possibly manifested as someone who was NOT buried.

[Miss Austen]

Another point is that if you remember Jack's grandfather has disappeared from the care home. You get the impression he has somehow gone to the island - why would he want to go there? Does the island make you young again or reverse ageing? We know it can cure the sick.

There was also that business with the shoes.

Shoes keep cropping up in Lost - one of the first scenes shows one of Christian Shepherds tennis shoes hanging in the tree.

Then Ray gives Jack a pair of Christian's shoes for Locke but I always had the feeling they were Ray's shoes.

So Locke was wearing someone else's shoes whereas Christian was wearing tennis shoes bought for him by Jack. Jack explained he didn't buy proper shoes for his father because no one would see them in the coffin but of course - they were very evident in the tree!!!

Do the shoes a corpse is wearing have any relevance to the body disappearing and not disappearing on the island?!

Cheers, MA

[Miss Austen]

Reed, you said Christian Shepherd made the real Locke turn the wheel in a different way to what he had been instructed. Was that a bad thing? I can't remember what bad effect it had compared to what it should have been.

Was it a bad order by Christian or a good order?

Cheers, MA