Official Season 2 Episode 21 Discussion Thread

[Nickeshi]

Originally Posted by the used,September 15, 2006 12:03 pm

im confused, when eko went to where the beechcraft was i didnt see a question mark but just a circle where the pearl hatch was. was i tired and missed the 'question mark' ??

The plane was over the bottom bit of the "?", There's some screen caps of it in here http://www.lostcommunity.co.uk/forums/inde...topic=503&st=15

[Hooting Heck]

Have we been over the dreams, yet? I think there has to be a reason for them.

Ana Lucia told Mr.Eko he was dreaming, and then she appeared shot.
He later finds out that she had indeed been shot, and was already dead when he had his dream.
This is a pretty powerful indication that his dreams aren't coming just from his subconscious, 'something' is getting into his dreams and giving him information. So it gives him some reason to trust in what Yemi told him in the dream (which backs up the experience he had with Charlotte Malkin at the airport, but this time 2 dead people appear to Mr.Eko).

Then Locke has a dream, in which he's Mr.Eko, and Yemi appears.
First, 'Mr.Eko' is limping, a clue to the sleeping Locke that he's having a dream; and I think Yemi calls 'Mr.Eko' John?

(Also, I think I'm quite unusual in that I very rarely appear in my own dreams, so probably I'm the only person who'll think the next bit is significant. Most people I know always dream about themselves, or dream about things from their own perspective. If that's the norm, then if they have a dream in which they don't appear - as themselves - that would alert them to something unusual going on).

Then the real Eko recognises his brother from Locke's description of the dream. This indicates to Eko and Locke that 'something' is getting into Locke's dreams, because Locke knows nothing of Yemi - just as Charlotte Malkin knew nothing of Yemi (allegedly), and Mr.Eko knew nothing of Ana Lucia's death.

So what the hell is going on with these dreams? It's like 'something' is planting information in people's heads when they're asleep. What for? Is it trying to motivate them, or are they subconsciously reaching out for answers from the island's supernatural luminiferous aether?

Seems to me that 'something' realises Locke is losing his resolve concerning entering the numbers. So it has used Ana Lucia and Yemi to prompt Eko (via his dream) to take over the task. The purpose of Locke's dream seems to have been to kill off his faith in entering the numbers for good (via the discovery of The Pearl hatch and the info it contained).

Unless someone has another explanation.
I'll see my sister at the weekend, she has an ENORMOUS book of dream meanings that she swears by, but all the theories are expressions of basic emotions, so I don't think it'll help with artistic uses.

[Him]

Seems to me that 'something' realises Locke is losing his resolve concerning entering the numbers. So it has used Ana Lucia and Yemi to prompt Eko (via his dream) to take over the task. The purpose of Locke's dream seems to have been to kill off his faith in entering the numbers for good (via the discovery of The Pearl hatch and the info it contained).

There was a thread a while back that I made which discussed what Cerberus/The Island was intending with the dreams it seemed to be implanting in the survivors.

I think it's notable that Locke appeared to be being taken to the Pearl before he opened the Swan, which seemed to resist being opened (and both the Island and Walt seemed to suggest to Locke, in retrospect, not to open the Swan).

Perhaps the Island never wanted Locke to have any faith in the Swan? Boone was supposed to notice the circle, maybe? Perhaps he wasn't meant to die (it sure does seem unnecessary)?

Of course, this seems at odds with the fact that Yemi was telling Eko he must enter the numbers into the computer.

Oh and congratulations on noticing the 1:48 thing, I'll blame it on the blurriness and lack of interest in studying the sheet of paper.
I'm doing Maths at Uni as well, hah.

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by Him,September 19, 2006 12:02 am

Oh and congratulations on noticing the 1:48 thing, I'll blame it on the blurriness and lack of interest in studying the sheet of paper.
I'm doing Maths at Uni as well, hah.

It ain't maths - it's too much scientific computer programming!
Specifically, converting dates to Julian Days and back again.
Take my advice, avoid it at all costs.

Anyway, is there anything to indicate that Cerberus or whatever is actually getting into people's dreams? I can't think of anything in the story so far.

I'm wondering if there's someone like Walt or Charlotte, a psychic who's been on the island for some time, possibly physically trapped or imprisoned, trying to prompt the Losties into sorting everything out.

Locke seemed to have the necessary initiative, motivation and resolve; but he's turned out to be too easily confused. Or he's distracted by ulterior motives; like leadership issues with Jack, or he's doing it to make up for past failures before coming to the island (similar to Charlie wanting to look after Claire).

[R]

Originally Posted by Hooting Heck,September 18, 2006 09:47 pm

Have we been over the dreams, yet? I think there has to be a reason for them.

Ana Lucia told Mr.Eko he was dreaming, and then she appeared shot.
He later finds out that she had indeed been shot, and was already dead when he had his dream.
This is a pretty powerful indication that his dreams aren't coming just from his subconscious, 'something' is getting into his dreams and giving him information. So it gives him some reason to trust in what Yemi told him in the dream (which backs up the experience he had with Charlotte Malkin at the airport, but this time 2 dead people appear to Mr.Eko).

Then Locke has a dream, in which he's Mr.Eko, and Yemi appears.
First, 'Mr.Eko' is limping, a clue to the sleeping Locke that he's having a dream; and I think Yemi calls 'Mr.Eko' John?

(Also, I think I'm quite unusual in that I very rarely appear in my own dreams, so probably I'm the only person who'll think the next bit is significant. Most people I know always dream about themselves, or dream about things from their own perspective. If that's the norm, then if they have a dream in which they don't appear - as themselves - that would alert them to something unusual going on).

Then the real Eko recognises his brother from Locke's description of the dream. This indicates to Eko and Locke that 'something' is getting into Locke's dreams, because Locke knows nothing of Yemi - just as Charlotte Malkin knew nothing of Yemi (allegedly), and Mr.Eko knew nothing of Ana Lucia's death.

So what the hell is going on with these dreams? It's like 'something' is planting information in people's heads when they're asleep. What for? Is it trying to motivate them, or are they subconsciously reaching out for answers from the island's supernatural luminiferous aether?

Seems to me that 'something' realises Locke is losing his resolve concerning entering the numbers. So it has used Ana Lucia and Yemi to prompt Eko (via his dream) to take over the task. The purpose of Locke's dream seems to have been to kill off his faith in entering the numbers for good (via the discovery of The Pearl hatch and the info it contained).

Unless someone has another explanation.
I'll see my sister at the weekend, she has an ENORMOUS book of dream meanings that she swears by, but all the theories are expressions of basic emotions, so I don't think it'll help with artistic uses.

I must just point out that Locke never described Yemi to Eko. He simply said "there was a priest" [or something like that]. Eko immediately jumped on this and Locke never once confirmed anything that Eko said. Although of course we know that Eko was right because we also saw Yemi.

But yes, weve had some riveting discussion on this area. Basically it does indeed seem as if someone [HF?] or something [BS? the island?] is tapping into the subconcious of certain losties at specific times. Either to motivate them for the good..or for bad. Of course when bad things happen [such as Charlies interpretation of the Aaron/danger dream], it could be down to the character and the not the bad intentions of the island or who/whatever is trying to guide them.

Anyhoo, after seeing the "?" eppy and thinking back to other eppy's im starting to develop a theory that it is infact the dead who are guiding/hindering certain losties at specific times. That would explain the appearance of people like Yemi, Ana etc in dreams and the voices/whispers of Frank etc. Wouldnt it be something if Mr De groot was killed by HFoundation and it is infact he who is "between places" trying to guide the losties in defeating whoever the agressors are! I certainly feel that this island acts as a portal beteen life and the place where souls gather. Im not saying theyre in limbo or anything like that ..just that this island..this special island, gives the dead a corridor whereby they can 'cross the line' [for a period of time]..

Although in saying all that, i do still like the idea that it is Cerberus [or the island..or HF] who is tapping into their minds..

[R]

Originally Posted by Him,September 19, 2006 01:02 am

I think it's notable that Locke appeared to be being taken to the Pearl before he opened the Swan, which seemed to resist being opened (and both the Island and Walt seemed to suggest to Locke, in retrospect, not to open the Swan).

Perhaps the Island never wanted Locke to have any faith in the Swan? Boone was supposed to notice the circle, maybe? Perhaps he wasn't meant to die (it sure does seem unnecessary)?

Isnt it amazing how theyve made many of us feel so certain that Boone was meant to die and that the light from the Swan was a symbolic sign..a pat on the back, if you will to Mr Locke..and now..24 [or so] episodes later we have another solid possibility. That Boone wasnt meant to die..that he wasnt a sacrifice and that Lockes path to the Swan was not the path Locke was supposed to be on!

Dont get me wrong..i still hold much faith in the first option..but i love the way theyve given us this amazing 'other' option.

[hundredand8]

Hi HH, thanks for this post.

Quite revealing, changed my view on a number of things. Can't really add much to it, except:

(Also, I think I'm quite unusual in that I very rarely appear in my own dreams, so probably I'm the only person who'll think the next bit is significant. Most people I know always dream about themselves, or dream about things from their own perspective. If that's the norm, then if they have a dream in which they don't appear - as themselves - that would alert them to something unusual going on).

I can indeed confirm that I always appear in my own dreams! Now how boring is that!

[daviePOSEIDON]

These are all really interesting points. The more I think of it, the more I think that Boone was not meant to look in the plane. It is such an interesting topic and I guess we will never have an answer.

[hundredand8]

Just imagine what Lost would be like if they had discovered the Pearl, turned the TV on and seen Desmond in the Swan.

No way to communicate with him. No idea he is indeed in the Swan. But maybe a chance to experiment - knock on the hatch and see if he reacts. At any rate, a chance to not be completely surprised by the events.

Of course only one camera working, no sound. But a completely different story line!

[Hooting Heck]

Originally Posted by hundredand8,September 19, 2006 07:57 pm

Hi HH, thanks for this post.

Quite revealing, changed my view on a number of things. Can't really add much to it, except:

I can indeed confirm that I always appear in my own dreams! Now how boring is that!

My dreams are also quite boring. Especially the recurring ones. There was the one about the potatos in the bottom of a fridge. Then the one about some bloke buying lengths of wood - at least that one had a bit of action I s'pose.

Anyway, the thing is Mr.Eko's dreams contained specific instructions and guidelines, whereas Locke's were vague and more open to interpretation.

Maybe this is an expression of their characters. Whatever psychic forces are on the island, they simply do 'whatever'. It's up to the recipients mind to make something of the influence.

A bit like some people seeing a '?' in the grass, some seeing a circle, some seeing an '8'.

[Magnovey Phoenix]

10/10

Amazing episode! So many mysteries and so many secrets. Another station revealed! This episode is just perfect! For Island story to Eko's flashbacks!
I have some questions but I'll ask only one. I like to share my LOST passion with other people but is no greater pleasure for me than to sit alone and analyze the show with myself.

1) If you do believe that Smoke can take human form and he took the form of his brother, how did Smoke enter the Hatch without being noticed? Some had to see him!

I have some other interesting thoughts... That Charlotte girl...

[freckles08]

Ahh one of my fav episodes i don't know why it just is. I think its just the great island story after such a shocking ending in two for the road and Mr Eko's flashback was really ensightfull. One thing i was thinking about that Malkin physic guy said he was a "fake" but then he knew that the plane was going to crash and that Aaron is "special" So i don't really understand this.

[Magnovey Phoenix]

Not just that. His daughter DID die but I'm guessing he didn't wanted to expose it to media... Now why did he do that...