Official Season 2 Episode 21 Discussion Thread

[R]

Wow..wow and WOW!

What an episode.

So we found out that the 'island' did sacrifice Boone [as suspected ] but that there was a deeper reason for it than just there mere strengthening/testing of Locke's faith.

I love the way Locke returned to his self deprevating best..denying his own previous dreams and sense of purpose - Classic Locke..an ordinary man caught up in extraordinary things..now suffering at the hands of his own faith. Brilliantly acted too.

Eko dream was amazing..at last I am reminded of the reason why i loved him so much 10 or so episodes ago. It was so insightful to see how he was brought on this journey to the island..that really answers a lot of question which im sure will be discussed in more detail later. Good to see Yemi again and the way in which he seemed to connect Locke and Eko's subconciounce together. MOst interesting.

Also..this whole episode and the dreams that Locke and Eko had make me think that we are going down the 'ghost' route? I was sceptical at such a possibility beforehand but after seeing the magnificent way in which it was handled, im well impressed and would like to see more...NOW!

So..are the dead [eg Yemi] the REAL others? Do Zeke and his people know about the 'otherside' [as in the side where spirits can communicate with the living] and are the Dharma others posing as them? If Jack and co cross the line are they in fact entering a different reality.. a different level of conciousness? Just a random thought [and i dont necessarily believe this im just throwing it out there] but is Zeke even alive?

Also, are all of the dreams in actual fact geneuine messages from dead loved ones such as Yemi? Or are they also or in part the work of Dharma/Hanso..

It was amaizng to see inside the 'Pearl' hatch..and i loved it when Locke said to Eko "May I"..when Eko was about to life the hatchdoor open. Classic. But who could blame him!

It was good to see a decent side to Sawyer [at last]. This wont take away all of the nastyness that he's done over recent weeks but it was sweet seeing him comfort Kate and give up the heroin [and location of the guns] in a bid to reduce Libby's suffering. Michael was brillinatly portrayed in this episode - his face when Libby 'came back to life'!

To be honest theres so much to talk about and i havent done this episode justice. Once i wake up a bit more i'll add some more

One of the best of the season for me..right up there with 24TR and ML!

[R]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,September 06, 2006 12:27 am

Yes, it was a strong one.

Initial complaint, to get it out of the way, is that, if Locke was that disillusioned, why bother showing him being marginally uplifted by Rose's reminding him about his magic legs? Would a slow, steady onscreen process of disillusion not have been more effective, without our being confused by new directions not followed up? I was confused anyway... this was not the Locke of two episodes ago.

Yeah i was a little confused by his apparent lack of faith once again also. I had thought that his resolve had been reinforced by Rose's confirmation in SOS. However i suppose it can also be viewed as being quite a realistic responce by Locke..since faith is a funny thing at times..one minute you can be full of it and the next you can be lacking it. Also i suppose Locke so badly wanted to believe...that he wouldnt allow himself to believe [if you know what i mean?]..because to give himself such hope once again only for it to be torn down would have been too much for him to deal with..so i guess he put the blinkers on. Thank God for Eko [and Yemi], huh

[R]

Originally Posted by Mantis Zero,September 06, 2006 12:29 am

Eko didnt even think twice about his vision, he was straight up and out claiming he had a vision before which told him to build the church. So who told him to build the church in a dream? It wasnt Yemi so who was it?

I think it was the last image of the church from the black smoke wasnt it? That, i believe gave him the confirmation that he needed to build a church maybe..[Update: I see Murg has also suggested this]

Originally Posted by Mantis Zero

If the others have camera's in the hatch then Michael could never have swerved them by faking Ana's death

yeah, i guess that ruled that option out then. Unless he isnt aware that they can view the hatch?

Also..at least we now know for certain how they [posing as Walt?] managed to communicate with Mike exactly at the time he was by the computer. But it does beg the question - where are the hatch camera's..theyre very well hidden arent they? Must be concealed in all of that 'important looking' machinery etc

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 06, 2006 07:51 am

So we found out that the 'island' did sacrifice Boone [as suspected ] but that there was a deeper reason for it than just there mere strengthening/testing of Locke's faith.

Some interesting ideas there. Just a point about the above - I thought we learned that the island didn't sacrifice Boone at all: his death was completely pointless and unplanned, because the hatch that the dream apparently wanted Locke to find was on the ground, and the Beechcraft was entirely incidental.

[R]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,September 06, 2006 10:08 am

Some interesting ideas there. Just a point about the above - I thought we learned that the island didn't sacrifice Boone at all: his death was completely pointless and unplanned, because the hatch that the dream apparently wanted Locke to find was on the ground, and the Beechcraft was entirely incidental.

You could be right but I saw it differently, in that the island [or whatever force gave him the dream - eg the dead] used Boone in the dream and took away the use fo Lockes legs so that Boone would go up to the plane and make it fall [or was it helped over?]. So the plane falling was part of the design in my view..Boone died as a consequence of it falling. Whatsmore it just so happened that the plane fell on top of the hatch.

"Teresa falls up the stairs, Teresa falls down the stairs" - This is a subtle yet criss reference to Boone's sacrice..in that he had to go up to the plane..in order for the plane and eventually Locke and Eko, to go down inside the hatch.

Also if the beechcraft was incidental then why would it have been in Locke's dream? I just think it was meant that one day EKo and Locke would come back together to find the hatch..afterall, it did appear that Yemi was able to link both of their subconciounces

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoRevo,September 06, 2006 09:20 am

You could be right but I saw it differently, in that the island [or whatever force gave him the dream - eg the dead] used Boone in the dream and took away the use fo Lockes legs so that Boone would go up to the plane and make it fall [or was it helped over?]. So the plane falling was part of the design in my view..Boone died as a consequence of it falling. Whatsmore it just so happened that the plane fell on top of the hatch.

"Teresa falls up the stairs, Teresa falls down the stairs" - This is a subtle yet criss reference to Boone's sacrice..in that he had to go up to the plane..in order for the plane and eventually Locke and Eko, to go down inside the hatch.

Also if the beechcraft was incidental then why would it have been in Locke's dream? I just think it was meant that one day EKo and Locke would come back together to find the hatch..afterall, it did appear that Yemi was able to link both of their subconciounces

I meant it was incidental in itself: it just marked the spot where the hatch was.

[Kiowa Warrior]

Another great episode!

I'm so glad Locke is getting back to his old self: trekking through the jungle; finding strange things in it; weird dreams; considering his faith, destiny and reason for being on this island...classic. Welcome back Locke!

I loved the whole storyline with Locke and Eko - Eko seemed to be the one in command of that expedition, with Locke tagging along quite reluctantly and doubting the point and purpose of it. And Locke's outburst about his 'pointless life' and discovering that pushing the button was just a test was just brilliant - very sad, but very well acted. Now I just wonder if Eko's speech to him at the end - about how pushing the button is important work - will have re-ignited Locke's faith and belief that he is destined for something extraordianary on the island, or whether it just confirmed to Locke that there is nothing special whatsoever about what he was doing. I noticed that Locke once again denied that the hatch was 'his' -and that was before the discovery of the Pearl hatch - so whatever he chooses to believe now I think that his complete and utter devotion to the hatch is eroding.

And I did have to wonder what Locke was doing by sending the map up into that vaccum tube! I can only assume that he wanted the Dharma people to know that someone had found out about thier blast door map and other hatches. Did he mean it in a welcoming sense, as in trying to establish friendly contact with them? Or was it like a warning shot to them - that the crash survivors know more about Dharma than Dharma think, and that they're not to be underestimated?

Oh and a random thought I had when I saw that vaccum tube was from an episode of The Simpsons - Homer puts a capsule of reports into a vaccum tube at work, but the vaccum tube leads straight outside and dumps the capsule in the river, where a huge pile of capules are stacked!

Maybe the hatch's tube doesn't actually carry the reports to anyone, and the reports are simply dumped somewhere or destroyed? Maybe it's a test for the Pearl hatch's occupants; to see if they will follow orders?

[Nickeshi]

I think that was probably my favourite ep of season 2 so far. Finding another hatch and not taking about 15 episodes to finally see what was in it was good. I definatley think that someone has been in that hatch recently because there was a cigerette on the table and it didn't look like it has been out for too long.
I don't see what Eko sees in carrying on pushing the button if its been revealed that it does nothing.

I jumped so bad when Libby started coughing, poor Hurley. And when Eko headbutted Locke, that was so funny and the bit when he asked Locke if he wanted to watch the orientation tape again. And Sawyer calling Henry "the artist formerly known as Henry Gale"

A great episode all round.

[Lis]

An amazing episode! I agree with all the points suggested so far, so no point in repeating them all now. Although I was SO annoyed that Locke didn't try to rewind that tape, I know he had no reason to, but do you think they'll go back and find out?

Also, I bet Jack will be very annoyed to find out that Locke and Eko didn't go out searching for Henry. But just a thought, what do you think happened between Henry and Michael? Maybe Michael explained the 'plan' to Henry, or maybe just told him to run as they'll all think he did it or even Henry just saw the opportunity and ran.

Was extremely pleased to see Sawyer's human side coming out, and felt devastated for hurley, the poor guy. And I hope he doesn't think that Libby was just thinking about Michael cause she liked him or something, and he thinks it's his fault cause he forgot the blankets....

I think that maybe Locke put that plan into the tube by mistake, and didn't realise that it would be sent to someone. Because, when that part of the orientation vid came on he looked a bit sheepish! And on the print out from the computer there seemed to be different numbers? Or is that just me? Will have to find a screencap.

Oh, and a further thing. The guy in the Orientation vid seemed to have full function of his left arm! Very strange...

[Lis]

Just found a screencap:


*image from lost-media.com*

They don't seem to be 'our' numbers!

[The Wizard]

Right, here we go, maybe Henry hasnt actually escaped, maybe he is still in the swan and maybe he has gone into the but with the electromagnet, unless that would have sucked him up

Also i reckon that maybe the last people observing the swan from 'the pearl' were watching to see if michael carried out his task successfully of killing Ana and they left as soon as it was complete.

I dont think that the vacuum thing goes anywhere either like kiki

Also, the guy on the video didnt actually say the button wasnt important did he, he just said the people pressing it believe it is important..... and you are to watch them, he never said it weren't important.

The guy in the video used a different name as well didnt he Dr Marvin Candle my arse!

I thought Locke sounded very much like Jack when he said 'bla bla bla Mr Eko' when they were down the pearl. Jack said 'and how exactly are we going to do that Mr. Locke' when talking about hunting in an early episode of season 1.

I loved the bit when Locke said 'you dont have a clue what you're talking about do you?'
And Eko said 'No, but you do John'

And i thought that the question mark on the ground was just genious!

[The Wizard]

they're not our numbers at all Lis, i reckon that must be a count of how many times the button has been pressed

[Mantis Zero]

Thats right that does appear to be a count of how many times the button has been pressed, so every 108 minutes will add a one to the itterations, so thats at least 41,602,127 times that the numbers have been entered succesfully!

How long is that in years? Wheres Sayid when you need him?

[Kiowa Warrior]

Yeah that does seem like a count of how many times the button has been pushed! And I do't have a single clue as to how many years that could be!

If Henry is to be believed in that he didn't push the button, would that have come up on the print out?

[Original]

Ok first things first.
Great episode, one of my favourite all time episodes.

One thing got answered for me last night.
If we take a trip down memory lane, back to Episode 10 Raised By another series 1. We have the physic wanting Claire on the plane, quickly changing his mind, as if he knew the plane was going to crash.
Now in this, he is back, bringing his daughter back to life. This screams dharma activity. He is without a doubt, an 'other' or dharma related. Its certified. :niceone:

Now unlike what the E4 advert led us to believe (at last the truth about the numbers is discovered, my ass) we don't find out much about the numbers, the guy in the orientation vid, never said anything about rhe button pushing being useless. Infact a more pointless task is watching them press the button. Did anyone else pick up on him saying 'the apollo theory' just before the vid ended. Now that was INT-REST-ING!!!

It was interesting all the paper recorded, like the above posts mention, it most probably is running count of when the numbers were pushed.
Now this can answer a theory people have ' The plane crashed cause desmon didn't push the numbers', now we can find this out. Cause it would of been noted.

Ok thats all I can think of right now, think of something else intersting againt tonight