Sawyer & Jack: Leadership

[Reed]

SAWYER: 'cause back when you were calling the shots, you pretty much just reacted. See, you didn't think, Jack, and as I recall, a lot of people ended up dead.
JACK: I got us off the Island.

SAWYER: But here you are... [sighs] right back where you started. So I'm gonna go back to reading my book, and I'm gonna think, 'cause that's how I saved your ass today. And that's how I'm gonna save Sayid's tomorrow. [LostPedia]

--

Does anybody think Sawyer is completely in the wrong here? Regardless of what one may think of Jack, he did the best he could given the circumstances in S1-S4 [and S5]. I do however agree with Sawyer in his patient plan to help Sayid.

Jack could not have done things differently, in a way that would have meant NEVER returning to the Island. Nor could the deaths be avoidable for the most part.

Jack may not have been the perfect Leader, but this was an unfair assessment by Sawyer.

Sawyer did not help Jack's cause for the most part during his Leadership in S1 and beyond. He made Jack's [and the Survivors'] job more difficult because he liked being hated and being a general nuisance whenever he had the chance.

However, so far Sawyer has done very well in a Leadership position - yet he has had it ALOT easier than Jack ever did.

[KatesFate]

Sawyer was more than hospitable to Jack until Jack gave him a hard time about sitting there reading and drinking a beer. It wasn't until then that Sawyer developed an attitude with him. Maybe Sawyer was a little harsh, but I can totally see where he was coming from.

However, so far Sawyer has done very well in a Leadership position - yet he has had it ALOT easier than Jack ever did.

I dont agree with that. Sawyer has been on the island for three years longer than Jack was and has endured losing all of his friends, the flashes, the others, and infiltrating the DI to stay alive. I would say they have both had it equally as hard.

[R]

"Reacting" vs "Thinking" = the new "Science" vs "Faith"

Good to see Jack getting schooled in yet another philosophical battle Even Sawyer can see that Locke and Ben were right. He's had a lot of time to THINK, and reflect on the events that took place in 2004.

I must say, as a Ben and Locke fan, it's good to have Sawyer on board -- I'm really digging him this season, it's like S1 all over again!

That said, Jack wasn't alone in blowing up the Others and killing our people..was he, James

[Reed]

Originally Posted by KatesFate

Sawyer was more than hospitable to Jack until Jack gave him a hard time about sitting there reading and drinking a beer. It wasn't until then that Sawyer developed an attitude with him. Maybe Sawyer was a little harsh, but I can totally see where he was coming from.

Yes, Jack was unnecessarily rude to Sawyer. Though not rude enough to warrant Sawyer's comments in response.

I dont agree with that. Sawyer has been on the island for three years longer than Jack was and has endured losing all of his friends, the flashes, the others, and infiltrating the DI to stay alive. I would say they have both had it equally as hard.

Yes, Sawyer did not have it easy the moment the O6 left the Island - yet I feel the Survivors [S1-S4] experienced ALOT more negative things than Sawyer and Juliet [etc] experienced in S5.

[Miss Austen]

I seem to recall that Sawyer was a pain in the you know where for Jack during his leadership. Sawyer was always hoarding supplies and guns etc. Jack had to play poker with him to get them back so that he could use them for the benefit of the island folks.

Many many times Sawyer questioned Jack's leadership decisions - surely Jack is allowed to do the same?!

As for rudeness, he called Jack Jackass and then told him that he was the nearest thing he had to a friend on the island! Seems to change his tune a lot Sawyer! I think you can say he had a love/hate relationship with Jack.

He could have told Jack about his meeting with Christian a lot earlier but only told him about the meeting when Jack showed him some trust and (I think) gave him a gun to use on the raft - then Sawyer told him of the meeting with Christian.

Having said that, Sawyer was at times a great right hand man for Jack. I wonder if Sawyer's touchiness is anything to do with Jack's former relationship with Juliet?

Don't forget that whatever Jack's faults, he poured his own blood into Boone's veins in an effort to save his life. He also resuscitated Charlie when Kate told him to give up. Jack didn't give up and Charlie got some extra time to live. Jack also (with Kate's help) nursed Sawyer back to health after various mishaps.

Jack never wanted to be leader but everyone had faith in him. Yes, he reacted because doctors have to react - they can't always think and plan. I would say to be a good leader you need thinking and planning skills and being able to think quickly in an emergency situation.

Not so long ago, Jack and co were being berated on this forum for not returning to the island rapidly enough to 'save' their friends! Now Sawyer is ticking him off for being back on the island!!! Sawyer seems to think Jack and co were the cause of Locke's death; but he doesn't know about Ben's part in it and Sawyer doesn't even know that Locke is walking around fine and dandy in 2007, so Sawyer is going off half cocked isn't he?

It would be better if Jack and Sawyer could work together and I hope that does happen eventually. Sawyer may need a right hand man himself if that Phil geezer has it in for him.


Cheers, MA

[boltyyy]

Sawyer's just not a leader at all; he is a con man and that all.
No matter how you contort it, no matter how much he changes, he is a con man at the core and that's what he will always be.

It's not like someone can defend well look at him with Juliet...while he's assuming the name La Fleur? Yeah. Not a good argument.

You're right Reed, its not like there is anything he has had to do after that one lie...which doesn't take that much effort. And with what he did for Jack and co...not too much effort there either. He knows his DHARMA like the back of his hand at this point, and he has earned respect. He's not as good a leader as Jack.

[Miss Austen]

Sawyer doesn't even feel much loyalty towards the DI. Remember Sawyer told Hurley that he wasnt there to be Nostradamus to the Dharma Initiative when Hurley reminded him that the DI got wiped out.

I seem to recall Sawyer gave Jack a hard time for trusting Juliet and bringing her back to the Losties camp. Now we have Sawyer shacked up/married to Juliet! Can't Sawyer even give Jack credit for that decision?

I mean Sawyer does a little conning of the DI and suddenly sees himself as Winston Churchill - perlease! I normally like Sawyer but he's starting to get a little arrogant. Maybe he's doing too much reading!

Cheers, MA

[KatesFate]

Yes, Sawyer did not have it easy the moment the O6 left the Island - yet I feel the Survivors [S1-S4] experienced ALOT more negative things than Sawyer and Juliet [etc] experienced in S5.

Yes but Sawyer was one of those survivors during (S1-S4) so he experienced that negativity as well as the happenings on the island after the 06 left. So yes, he has been through quite a bit more. Jack had it pretty good off of the island for most of those 3 years.

I would just like to say that I am not trying to pit Jack and Sawyer against each other. I am a Jack fan too, remember? I just don't think the way Jack treated him was necessary, especially when Sawyer was being more than hospitable. Jack could have been a bit more tactful. That is not to say that Sawyer does not have his faults.

I seem to recall that Sawyer was a pain in the you know where for Jack during his leadership. Sawyer was always hoarding supplies and guns etc. Jack had to play poker with him to get them back so that he could use them for the benefit of the island folks.

True, but that was many moons ago and "What happened, happened."

As for rudeness, he called Jack Jackass and then told him that he was the nearest thing he had to a friend on the island!

Um, Sawyer called him a Jackass because Jack blamed the noise coming from the plane on Sawyer when Sawyer was behind him the whole time. Loved that scene.

I would say to be a good leader you need thinking and planning skills and being able to think quickly in an emergency situation.

I agree with this, but I think they both share these qualities.

Sawyer seems to think Jack and co were the cause of Locke's death;

How exactly is that? He never blamed Jack for Locke's death and I don't think that was ever even implied.

It would be better if Jack and Sawyer could work together and I hope that does happen eventually. Sawyer may need a right hand man himself if that Phil geezer has it in for him.

This is certain. The two of them would make a great team if they could put aside their differences. Phil wouldn't stand a chance.

No matter how you contort it, no matter how much he changes, he is a con man at the core and that's what he will always be.

*font stealing again* I think Sawyer's conning days ended when the 06 left the island. Sure he conned their way into the DI, but this was necesary for their survival on an island they had no chance of ever getting off of. Anyone would have lied under those circumstances.

I mean Sawyer does a little conning of the DI and suddenly sees himself as Winston Churchill - perlease! I normally like Sawyer but he's starting to get a little arrogant. Maybe he's doing too much reading!

Sawyer never compared himself to Winston Churchill. He is merely emulating him. People emulate their role models all of the time and Sawyer has always been a little arrogant. You can never read too much!

[boltyyy]

Originally Posted by KatesFate

*font stealing again* I think Sawyer's conning days ended when the 06 left the island. Sure he conned their way into the DI, but this was necesary for their survival on an island they had no chance of ever getting off of. Anyone would have lied under those circumstances.

You've just contradicted yourself with your statement about his con. 'Oh he stopped conning' 'he conned them into the DI'...JUST SAYING.

And what you said after than exactly justifies my argument! Anyone would have done it, it was necessary, that means that there was no true leadership there, just him being there at that time, and him being the character who was the most ballsy of the group.

A true leader stands up for something, defends something, pushes for something and when the going gets tough he/she's there 100%. I dunno I'm not gettin' that from Sawyer.

[Cavegirl]

Interesting point, Boltyyy, about Sawyer just conning. I wonder if Sawyer is just playing the role of leader rather than taking his responsibilities to heart. He has continued to deceive the DI all this time, secretly searching for the O6/Locke and he seems to regard the DI with rather jaundiced eyes unlike the earnest, fresh faced recruits. On the other hand he refers to them as "my people" and want to protect "what we got here" from the problems inherent in the O4's return. I wonder if that we refers to the whole DI or just him and Juliet? His loyalties seem confused at best.

As regards him and Jack's little spat, they wasted no time returning to their antagonistic relationship, did they? I think Jack just brings out the worst in Sawyer, they have a personality clash and will probably never get along. Juliet recognised quickly that Sawyer will be a pussycat if you just let him be Leader - something Kate has never really been able to do. I think Jack was looking forward to being immersed back into the constant life-or-death excitement of the island and playing hero again, and is disappointed to be "saved" by Sawyer. Of all people! It's probably a fate worse than death for him.

[The_abbott]

Jack is cleaning toliets now. Thats Karma for you

[Mrs Sawyer]

Neither of them are perfect, both are doing what they believe is best and people deal with situations in different ways, while i agree with Sawyers laid back approach i dont think that we can really fault Jack, in some circumstances he didnt have time to think and therefore just reacted. For Sawyer he has kind of had three years to plan!

[Miss Austen]

Yes KatesFate, what happened happened, but if it is OK for Sawyer to give Jack's leadership (which he never wanted in the first place) a critique, then it is OK for me to list how Saywer made Jack's life and leadership difficult - especially since Sawyer now seems to think he is a leadership expert!

As for Locke's death, Sawyer made some comment about Jack being responsible for many deaths. All Jack was trying to do was live up to his promise that he would get them off the island. No one had showed Jack that the island was a place worth staying for. Locke kept banging on about destiny and acting as if the island really was a totally wonderful place when we know that it wasn't. People had died or been killed long before Keamy's mob showed up. There'd been The Black Smoke (worth leaving the island for that reason alone) and The Others weren't exactly hospitable were they? They snatched Walt, Sawyer, Jack and Kate and created a climate of fear where innocent people got killed (Shannon, Ana and Libby). Jack also saved many people (Desmond, Sawyer and Charlie) and did his level best to save others from dying too (Boone, The Marshall and Libby).

Locke never used the stongest ace in his deck by telling Jack (a doctor remember) that he had been paralysed when he was on the plane and had experienced a miracle cure. Locke even had a reliable witness to this fact in Rose. Rose too never seemed to broadcast her own miracle cure.

Now Sawyer looked really upset when Jack told him Locke was dead which is to Sawyer's credit; but I got the feeling that he somehow holds Jack responsible for Locke's death because if he hadn't left, Locke wouldn't have left the island and died. But as I said in the first place, Locke never used his best argument to persuade Jack to stick around. However I'm now beginning to think these miracle cures only last as long as you are important to the island - perhaps once you have done what is expected of you, you are expendable (like Michael).

Also, Sawyer was actually helping Jack get people off the island, so he'd obviously come around to Jack's way of thinking and was prepared to leave the island until he jumped out! He'd lost faith in Locke at that point.

Jack may have gone into Sawyer's house and started being a bit critical, but why hadn't Sawyer filled them in on his situation with Juliet, his plan for releasing Sayid and what had been happening to them for three years? If Jack was being critical maybe it was because Sawyer hadn't been very communicative and preferred to read! It's like having guests to your home and instead of swapping stories and bringing yourselves up to speed on the doings in your lives, you just read and ignore them. I'd find that annoying myself!

As it is, Jack has returned to find most of his friends not in danger but living comfortably with the DI. The reason that Jack came back was mainly because of his father. What if Christian isn't really there and the Christian figure is just the Black Smoke or an illusion. He will have returned for no reason. At least Sun had a good reason to return.

It will become very tedious if instead of bickering with Locke, Jack now permanently bickers with Sawyer. I'd like to see a bit of teamwork but the lack of communication seems to be creating further problems for the Losties.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that instead of fighting each other they work together as a team. That would be good to see as I do normally like Sawyer but I thought he was being a bit hypocritical in this episode.

Cheers, MA

[Miss Austen]

Originally Posted by The_abbott

Jack is cleaning toliets now. Thats Karma for you

Well Sawyer's job of preventing drunken twits from blowing up trees doesn't have much more job satisfaction does it?!!!

Cheers, MA

[Reed]

Originally Posted by boltyyy

You're right Reed, its not like there is anything he has had to do after that one lie...which doesn't take that much effort. And with what he did for Jack and co...not too much effort there either. He knows his DHARMA like the back of his hand at this point, and he has earned respect. He's not as good a leader as Jack.

Glad you agree boltyyy.

Originally Posted by KsF

Yes but Sawyer was one of those survivors during (S1-S4) so he experienced that negativity as well as the happenings on the island after the 06 left. So yes, he has been through quite a bit more. Jack had it pretty good off of the island for most of those 3 years.

That is true but I am looking at it from a Leadership perspective - Jack was the Leader during that time, which was MORE demanding I feel than what Sawyer had to deal with during that SAME time period.

Yes, the other Survivors helped tremendously but ultimately Jack was incharge for the most part and took responsibility for the bad things that happened. While having to deal with idiots like Sawyer making life more difficult than it already was.

Jack was in a rather bad state OFF the Island.

I would just like to say that I am not trying to pit Jack and Sawyer against each other. I am a Jack fan too, remember? I just don't think the way Jack treated him was necessary, especially when Sawyer was being more than hospitable. Jack could have been a bit more tactful. That is not to say that Sawyer does not have his faults.

I feel Jack did not deserve Sawyer's comments after all Jack did and sacrificed as Leader in S1-S4. But yes, Jack need not have been rude to Sawyer, yet it was a somewhat harmless comment.

Originally Posted by boltyyy

A true leader stands up for something, defends something, pushes for something and when the going gets tough he/she's there 100%. I dunno I'm not gettin' that from Sawyer.

I feel it would only be fair if Jack make Sawyer's Leadership a living Hell to return the favour - perhaps costing him his job or something. Though of course this would be unfavourable for the O6.